Jeff Schiller is the manager of MIT's campus network and one of the Internet's leading security experts. Jeff talks about the deployment of PEM (Privacy Enhanced Mail) and a public key infrastructure and explains his philosophy of "very good security or no security." Jeff also talks about the difficulty of policing the Internet and discusses whether horses or computers are more useful to criminals.John Romkey has been a long-time TCP/IP developer and was recently named to the Internet Architecture Board. In this wide-ranging interview, John talks about SNMP and the famous "ToasterNet" demo at InterOp. (We learn why his garage is full of burnt Eggos and how he incurred the wrath of the Waffle Union.) He also talks about what kind of Internet security he'd like to see put in place, and what Internet applications of the future might look like.